Showing posts sorted by relevance for query Pat Keegans. Sort by date Show all posts
Showing posts sorted by relevance for query Pat Keegans. Sort by date Show all posts

Monday 22 November 2010

US families urged to back new inquiry into Megrahi conviction

[This is the headline over an article in today's edition of The Herald. It reads in part:]

American families who lost loved ones in the Lockerbie bombing have nothing to fear from an inquiry into Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi’s conviction, a long-standing campaigner has told them.

Lockerbie priest Father Pat Keegans has written an open letter to families of the US victims urging them to support a public inquiry into the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over the Dumfries and Galloway town on December 21, 1988, which killed everyone on board and 11 people on the ground. (...)

However, [Megrahi's] conviction has been mired in controversy, splitting opinion on either side of the Atlantic. The rift has intensified amid mounting pressure from Scottish campaigners for an inquiry, after the Libyan had to drop his appeal as a condition of being sent home to die. [RB: Dropping the appeal was a condition of repatriation under the UK-Libya prisoner transfer agreement, not under compassionate release. But, of course, the Justice Secretary made clear that he would deal with both applications together and Megrahi had no way of knowing which -- if either -- the Justice Secretary would favour.]

Father Keegans’s letter asks the US families to “show your concern for the legitimate and sincere views consistently held by me and many others”, insisting the growing number of dissenting voices “cannot be discounted as the rantings and ravings of conspiracy theory fanatics”.

He said: “It is your strongly held view that the trial and verdict were valid … However, your certainty in the validity of the trial and conviction should allow you to accept that such an inquiry would vindicate your belief and you should have nothing to fear from it.”

He added: “Whatever our views, it is clear that the full truth has not emerged; people who murdered our family members and friends are still at large.

“There has been a conviction which is not universally accepted but has been questioned by many. A full, public, independent inquiry into all aspects of the bombing would assist us in finding truth and justice.”

Earlier this month, a petition by the Justice For Megrahi pressure group signed by 1500 people was handed in to MSPs, calling on Holyrood to urge the Scottish Government to open an independent inquiry into the Libyan’s conviction.

Dr Jim Swire, whose daughter Flora died in the Lockerbie bombing, was among the group.

Father Keegans – whose home in Lockerbie escaped virtually unscathed after flaming debris from the aircraft demolished neighbouring houses – has been a counsellor for bereaved relatives in Scotland and overseas as well as an outspoken critic of the investigation and trial which led to Megrahi’s conviction.

Father Keegans said he wrote to the families after receiving an e-mail from Frank Duggan, president of the US family group, criticising comments made by Cardinal Keith O’Brien earlier this month supporting an independent inquiry into the conviction of Megrahi. (...)

But Ted Reina, whose daughter Jocelyn was a flight attendant on the aeroplane, said an inquiry would reopen old wounds.

Mr Reina, from California, said: “I see no good from opening an inquiry into the Lockerbie bombing except for the lawyers lining their pockets. Megrahi has been sent home to a hero’s welcome and is alive and well … For the families who have had years of anguish I see only more pain. I wonder how many of those who call for an inquiry actually saw the trial or watched it on closed circuit TV as my wife and I did.”

[According to a report by The Press Association news agency, Dr Jim Swire commented on The Herald article as follows:]

'Dr Jim Swire, whose daughter Flora died in the bombing, asked MSPs on Holyrood's Petitions Committee to push for an inquiry earlier this month.

'He backed Father Pat Keegans' attempts, hoping for an "objective look" at the evidence.

'Dr Swire said: "I think in the long term, some degree of truth is going to come out. I agree with what Pat Keegans has been saying but there will be some risk. The longer the truth takes to come out, the harder it will be for some people."'

[The full text of Canon Keegans's letter is as follows:]

Dear USA Families of Pan Am Flight 103,

The President of the family group, Mr Frank Duggan, sent an email to me expressing his disappointment with the recent statements made by Cardinal O’Brien. Rather than simply reply to him as an individual I wish to use his comments as an opportunity to speak to all the families.

Dear Families,

We met through an horrendous act of murder. We lost family members and friends through this heinous crime. In all that has happened over the years I have never lost sight of the great suffering inflicted upon you and have sought where possible to be a source of solace, healing and comfort. At the same time I have also been a challenge. Before the trial of Mr Megrahi and Mr Fahima I was saying to many of the families and to the media that I did not believe that the real perpetrators had been arrested and put on trial. During the trial and afterwards I was saying that the trial and the verdict would not stand up to scrutiny; it has not stood up to serious scrutiny. What I was voicing before, during and after the trial has now been voiced by many people at an international level. In his statement Cardinal O’Brien said this: “From the moment the verdict was announced, voices have been raised in protest. Over the years the clamour has grown amongst lawyers, politicians, academics and a growing number of ordinary citizens that the verdict amounted to a miscarriage of justice.”

I for my part would affirm that such voices cannot be discounted as the rantings and ravings of conspiracy theory fanatics or deranged and misguided people. Their voices merit a full, independent and public enquiry into all aspects of what we in Scotland call the Lockerbie Bombing.

I am aware that this is not a view commonly held by you; however, I would ask you to give your support, individually and/or as a group to a full, independent public enquiry. It is your strongly held view that the trial and verdict were valid. After all that has happened since the trial I would have to wonder if such a view is tenable. However, your certainty in the validity of the trial and conviction should allow you to accept that such an enquiry would vindicate your belief and you should have nothing to fear from it. At the same time your support for an enquiry would show your concern for the legitimate and sincere views consistently held by me and many others.

From the beginning we have all sought justice and truth. Whatever our views, it is clear that the full truth has not emerged; people who murdered our family members and friends are still at large. There has been a conviction which is not universally accepted but has been questioned by many. A full, public, independent enquiry into all aspects of the bombing would assist us in finding truth and justice for ourselves and all who have died.

Finally, I will continue to offer to you unconditionally, wherever it is accepted, any support, solace and comfort that I can give.

You are never far from my thoughts and prayers.

Yours sincerely,

Pat Keegans

Sunday 22 November 2015

From the beginning we have all sought justice and truth

[On this date in 2010 The Herald reported that Pat Keegans, parish priest of Lockerbie at the time of the Pan Am 103 disaster, had written to the families of US victims asking for their support in seeking an independent inquiry into the Lockerbie affair. The report no longer appears on the newspaper’s website, but a long excerpt can be read here. Canon Keegans’s letter reads as follows:]

Dear Families,

We met through an horrendous act of murder. We lost family members and friends through this heinous crime. In all that has happened over the years I have never lost sight of the great suffering inflicted upon you and have sought where possible to be a source of solace, healing and comfort. At the same time I have also been a challenge. Before the trial of Mr Megrahi and Mr Fahima I was saying to many of the families and to the media that I did not believe that the real perpetrators had been arrested and put on trial. During the trial and afterwards I was saying that the trial and the verdict would not stand up to scrutiny; it has not stood up to serious scrutiny. What I was voicing before, during and after the trial has now been voiced by many people at an international level. In his statement Cardinal O’Brien said this: “From the moment the verdict was announced, voices have been raised in protest. Over the years the clamour has grown amongst lawyers, politicians, academics and a growing number of ordinary citizens that the verdict amounted to a miscarriage of justice.”

I for my part would affirm that such voices cannot be discounted as the rantings and ravings of conspiracy theory fanatics or deranged and misguided people. Their voices merit a full, independent and public enquiry into all aspects of what we in Scotland call the Lockerbie Bombing.

I am aware that this is not a view commonly held by you; however, I would ask you to give your support, individually and/or as a group to a full, independent public enquiry. It is your strongly held view that the trial and verdict were valid. After all that has happened since the trial I would have to wonder if such a view is tenable. However, your certainty in the validity of the trial and conviction should allow you to accept that such an enquiry would vindicate your belief and you should have nothing to fear from it. At the same time your support for an enquiry would show your concern for the legitimate and sincere views consistently held by me and many others.

From the beginning we have all sought justice and truth. Whatever our views, it is clear that the full truth has not emerged; people who murdered our family members and friends are still at large. There has been a conviction which is not universally accepted but has been questioned by many. A full, public, independent enquiry into all aspects of the bombing would assist us in finding truth and justice for ourselves and all who have died.

Finally, I will continue to offer to you unconditionally, wherever it is accepted, any support, solace and comfort that I can give.

You are never far from my thoughts and prayers.

Yours sincerely,

Pat Keegans

Saturday 24 December 2016

Father Pat Keegans censored

[What follows is from an item originally posted on this blog on this date in 2009:]

Ayr priest barred from Lockerbie memorial service in Virginia


[This is the headline over a report in the [Daily Record]. It reads in part:]

An Ayr priest’s words were this week censored from a memorial service in the USA for the victims of the Lockerbie terror attack.

Canon Patrick Keegans was parish priest at Lockerbie when the attack occurred.

And he has spoken at previous services at the Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia, where there is a memorial cairn.

Canon Keegans had sent over an address to be read on Monday – the 21st anniversary of the atrocity.

But it wasn’t read out, after the leader of the American victims’ group took exception to part of it.

Canon Keegan proclaimed the release of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi took ‘courage’ and was the ‘right decision’.

And he further said that although few in America believe Megrahi to be innocent, the victims of the bombing ‘deserve’ justice.

But Frank Duggan, president of Victims of Pan Am 103, saw the excerpt of Canon Keegans’ address, printed by The Herald newspaper.

And he said: “Fr Keegans’ remarks, as printed in the newspaper, were deemed to be very inappropriate for this memorial service." (...)

Canon Keegans’ address also included moving and poignant tributes to victims on the ground and in the air.

And he told the Post this week: “I felt that in view of what has happened this year, I should say the things I did.

“I thought it right to present my view, and the view of many in Scotland.

“I believe in freedom of speech, but Mr Duggan’s censorship of my words has given them greater impact.”

Saturday 22 December 2018

"Some say that you have received justice. I am not at all convinced"

[Lockerbie victims live on in our hearts, says priest is the headline over a Press Association news agency report as featured on the website of The Courier. It reads in part:]

Canon Pat Keegans delivered a homily during a memorial mass at Holy Trinity RC Church in the town on Friday evening.

He spoke of the aftermath of the disaster and how those who died on the night of December 21, 1988 will not be forgotten.

Canon Keegans also told how when he is in Lockerbie he visits the Memorial Stone at Dryfesdale Cemetery and reads the names of the 270 victims, among them people he knew in the town.

He said: “There you are, Joanne Flannigan from Sherwood Crescent. You are only 10. I remember you and I remember your friend Lyndsey Sommerville, who is 10, and her brother, Paul, who is 13.

“And you, Joanne, and Paul and Lyndsey are delivering Christmas cards. You ring my doorbell. You hand me a card. You smile and say, ‘Have a nice Christmas’ and all three of you die.

“But, as with all who died on that evening, whose names are engraved along with yours, you are not just a list. You are not just a distant memory.

“You are not from the past. You are precious people who live on in our hearts, for that is where your names are truly engraved.”

He added: “Some say that you have received justice.  I am not at all convinced.

“What I can promise is that we will not close the book on the story of your lives, for the last chapter is still to be written: Pan Am 103. The truth must be known. The whole truth.”

Canon Keegans praised the way those in the town dealt with the aftermath of the tragedy.

He said: “As I speak to you here in Holy Trinity Church this evening, I can reflect that, having experienced here in Lockerbie, the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 and seeing such horror and devastation, we did not allow our lives to be poisoned by fear nor by a desire for revenge.

“All that we looked for was healing, recovery and justice.”

The service was led by Bishop William Nolan, with Father Jim Hayes the current parish Priest and Canon Keegans as guest preacher.

Sunday 26 December 2021

RIP Archbishop Desmond Tutu

[I am saddened to learn of the death today at the age of 90 of Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu, who was a convinced and long-time supporter of the Justice for Megrahi campaign. What follows is an article posted today on Jim Swire and Peter Biddulph's Lockerbie Truth website:]

Today's sad news about the death of former South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu holds a feature common to much of the media in the UK and USA. 

The selective amnesia of certain media editors is clear: Effusively praise those issues in which Tutu agrees with your agenda, and ignore those in which he opposes.

And so it is, once again, with the campaign for an inquiry into the factors surrounding the 1988 Lockerbie bombing and subsequent trial.

On the 15th March 2015 we reported that a petition had been submitted to the Scottish Parliament by the Justice for Megrahi group of bereaved relatives. That petition was rapidly and publicly supported by prominent personalities around the world. The petition, even after six years, still runs current on the Scottish Parliament's agenda.


Among those signing in support of the petition was Archbishop Desmond Tutu. He proved to be a strong supporter of the imprisoned Baset al-Megrahi and a South African colleague Nelson Mandela.  Mandela's support for al-Megrahi, too, remains ignored by the main British and US media. 

On 15th March 2015 we published the following post: [Names in alphabetical order].

Campaign for the acquittal of Baset Al-Megrahi and an official inquiry into Lockerbie


A petition requesting that the Scottish authorities undertake a comprehensive inquiry into Lockerbie is supported and signed by the following world renowned personalities. All support the campaign for acquittal of Baset Al-Megrahi, who was in 2000 convicted for the murder of 270 people on Pan Am 103.


Kate Adie was chief news correspondent for the BBC, covering several war zones 
on risky assignments. Currently hosts the BBC Radio 4 programme 
From Our Own Correspondent.


Professor Noam Chomsky has spent most of his career at the Massachusetts 
Institute of Technology (MIT), where he is currently Professor Emeritus, 
and has authored over 100 books. In a 2005 poll was voted 
the "world's top public intellectual".





Tam Dalyell, former Member of British Parliament and Father of the House. 
An eminent speaker who throughout his career refused to be prevented 
from speaking the truth to powerful administrations.

 


Christine Grahame MSP, determined advocate of the Lockerbie campaign.


Ian Hislop, editor of Private Eye magazine.

Father Pat Keegans, Lockerbie Catholic parish priest at the time of the tragedy. 

 Mr Andrew Killgore, former US Ambassador to Qatar. Founder of Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs.




John Pilger, former war correspondent, now a campaigning journalist and film maker. 



Dr Jim Swire.












Sir Teddy Taylor, British Conservative Party politician, MP from 1964 to 1979. 



Desmond Tutu, former Anglican Archbishop of South Africa. 1984 Nobel Peace Prize.



Mr Terry Waite. Former envoy for the church of England, held captive from 1987 to 1991




THE FULL LIST OF SIGNATORIES
Ms Kate Adie (Former Chief News Correspondent for BBC News).
Mr John Ashton (Author of ‘Megrahi: You are my Jury’ and co-author of ‘Cover Up of Convenience’).
Mr David Benson (Actor/author of the play ‘Lockerbie: Unfinished Business’).
Mrs Jean Berkley (Mother of Alistair Berkley: victim of Pan Am 103).
Mr Peter Biddulph (Lockerbie tragedy researcher).
Mr Benedict Birnberg (Retired senior partner of Birnberg Peirce & Partners).
Professor Robert Black QC (‘Architect’ of the Kamp van Zeist Trial).
Mr Paul Bull (Close friend of Bill Cadman: killed on Pan Am 103).
Professor Noam Chomsky (Human rights, social and political commentator).
Mr Tam Dalyell (UK MP: 1962-2005. Father of the House: 2001-2005).
Mr Ian Ferguson (Co-author of ‘Cover Up of Convenience’).
Dr David Fieldhouse (Police surgeon present at the Pan Am 103 crash site).
Mr Robert Forrester (Secretary of Justice for Megrahi).
Ms Christine Grahame MSP (Member of the Scottish Parliament).
Mr Ian Hamilton QC (Advocate, author and former university rector).
Mr Ian Hislop (Editor of ‘Private Eye’).
Fr Pat Keegans (Lockerbie parish priest on 21st December 1988).
Ms A L Kennedy (Author).
Dr Morag Kerr (Secretary Depute of Justice for Megrahi).
Mr Andrew Killgore (Former US Ambassador to Qatar).
Mr Moses Kungu (Lockerbie councillor on the 21st of December 1988).
Mr Adam Larson (Editor and proprietor of ‘The Lockerbie Divide’).
Mr Aonghas MacNeacail (Poet and journalist).
Mr Eddie McDaid (Lockerbie commentator).
Mr Rik McHarg (Communications hub coordinator: Lockerbie crash sites).
Mr Iain McKie (Retired Superintendent of Police).
Mr Marcello Mega (Journalist covering the Lockerbie incident).
Ms Heather Mills (Reporter for ‘Private Eye’).
Rev’d John F Mosey (Father of Helga Mosey: victim of Pan Am 103).
Mr Len Murray (Retired solicitor).
Cardinal Keith O’Brien (Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh and Cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church).
Mr Denis Phipps (Aviation security expert).
Mr John Pilger (Campaigning human rights journalist).
Mr Steven Raeburn (Editor of ‘The Firm’).
Dr Tessa Ransford OBE  (Poetry Practitioner and Adviser).
Mr James Robertson (Author).
Mr Kenneth Roy (Editor of ‘The Scottish Review’).
Dr David Stevenson (Retired medical specialist and Lockerbie commentator).
Dr Jim Swire (Father of Flora Swire: victim of Pan Am 103).
Sir Teddy Taylor (UK MP: 1964-2005. Former Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland).
Archbishop Desmond Tutu (Nobel Peace Prize Winner).
Mr Terry Waite CBE (Former envoy to the Archbishop of Canterbury and hostage negotiator).


Saturday 13 December 2008

Scottish newspapers on Megrahi campaign launch

The Scottish "heavy" daily newspapers have good coverage of yesterday's launch of the Justice for Megrahi campaign.

The Scotsman concentrates on the experiences of the parish priest of Lockerbie at the time of the disaster, Father Pat Keegans. The report reads in part:

'Father Patrick Keegan, 62, said he believed Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi, who has prostate cancer, was innocent and should be freed on compassionate grounds before an appeal against his conviction.

'"I wrote to Mr Megrahi offering him my support, telling him that I was convinced he was innocent, and that I would willingly offer support to him and his family," said Fr Keegan, who was living in Lockerbie at the time of the bombing, just yards from where a wing section of the Pan Am flight crashed in 1988.

'Describing the Libyan and his family as "victims" of the bombing, Fr Keegan said he believed there had been a mellowing of opinion, even among those previously convinced of his guilt.'

The comments from members of the public that follow the story are also well worth reading.

Lucy Adams in The Herald has an article headed "Priest claims police interference in aftermath of Lockerbie bomb". It reads in part:

'As the Justice For Megrahi campaign was launched yesterday, Father Patrick Keegan, the priest in Lockerbie at the time, revealed that he had been visited by police during the inquiry and asked to keep to the official line - that Libya was responsible. (...)

'"I really became convinced of his innocence when the whole thrust of the case shifted from Syria and Iran to Libya alone. Interference in my own life by the investigation team convinced me.

'"A police officer asked to come along and speak to me. I listened to him for quite a while and then I said: Have you come here to ask me to be silent? He said that the point was that when you speak people listen and we would appreciate it if you could follow our line of Libya alone.

'"I complained to the Lord Advocate about it at the time and got a very bland response. The very fact that they interfered and took the trouble to come to talk to me made up my mind that I was on the right track. Other people had similar experiences."'

[Note to editors: the gentleman's name is Father Patrick Keegans.

The Press and Journal has a good account by Joe Quinn. The BBC News website's report of the launch can be read here.]

Friday 28 November 2014

Impossible to ethically continue supporting the investigation and verdict

What follows is an item posted on this blog on this date in 2010:

Old wounds that need re-opened

This is the heading over a long post on Caustic Logic's blog The Lockerbie Divide. The post consists of a thoughtful discussion of Father Pat Keegans's recent letter to US Lockerbie families and of the reaction quoted in the original report in The Herald from one US relative, to the effect that an inquiry into the safety of the conviction of Abdelbaset Megrahi would "open old wounds".

The questions that Caustic Logic poses to the US relatives are questions that can equally be addressed to the Scottish Government which, notwithstanding the findings of the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission, continues to parrot the mantra that it does “not doubt the safety of the verdict against Abdelbaset al-Megrahi.”

The following are excerpts from Caustic Logic’s article:

Father Keegans and many others seriously feel that something is deeply wrong with this case. It's not denial or fevered imagination telling them this, but the facts themselves. The facts presented and those hidden, all considered in detail, and weighed critically, show entirely too much grounds for doubt to ethically continue supporting the investigation and verdict without reservation.  No matter how unlikely or absurd it might seem to those with the wounds they consider closed, many are feeling constantly torn open and unhealed. And they're the better-informed. (...)

Professor Robert Black recently called the unreasonable conviction a "logjam," being used as an "excuse" by the UK (and US) governments to prevent another look, which they both greatly fear [source]. It's true. Not a single piece of relevant evidence against Megrahi can be shown to have all of these traits that real honest evidence usually has:
- physically plausible
- logically consistent with a remotely sane plan
- properly examined and documented
- obtained without entangling million-dollar dreams
- obtained from people who aren't chronic liars (like ... Giaka)
- read properly without undue dismissal of key factors like dates of key events
- no contrary facts that were simply brushed aside with no good reason

Americans may be okay with all of this, but they shouldn't be so judgmental and dismissive against those who do in fact have a problem with a sham "investigation" calling itself justice and good metaphorical surgery. The murder of 270 human beings was supposed to be investigated right, but it wasn't. It was supposed to be tried reasonably, but wasn't. These errors were supposed to be resolved in the appeals process, but weren't. That leaves us with it still needing to be fixed one way or another. It might be gotten right for the history books in a few more decades, or possibly, with some courage and vision, tenacity and luck and grace, even in news articles during our own lifetimes.

Thursday 19 December 2013

"I've always believed Megrahi was innocent... a scapegoat"

[Today’s edition of the Glasgow Evening Times carries a lengthy interview with Justice for Megrahi committee member Canon Pat Keegans, who was the Roman Catholic parish priest at Lockerbie when Pan Am 103 fell on the town.  It reads in part:]

Bodies fall from the sky in slow motion and as each one hits the ground very softly it turns into dust and powder.

It could be a slow motion sequence from a film, but this was the image that haunted the dreams of Cannon Patrick Keegans after he found himself at the very centre of the Lockerbie disaster.

The then parish priest lived at 1 Sherwood Crescent, a house left unimaginably almost unscathed after Pan Am flight 103 exploded in the skies above the Borders town and obliterated every other home in the street.

"I remember everything about the night," he says. "It feels a bit disturbing looking back after 25 years. I think there's an intensity at the moment, the emotions come back up very strongly and people are sensitive and a bit fragile." (...)

In the weeks after the tragedy, he helped the town come to terms with what had happened, and later campaigned against the conviction of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi. (...)

After getting his mother to safety, he spent the rest of the night walking around the smoke-filled streets with a local policeman trying to identify bodies. He still remembers the tremendous community ­effort of the people of Lockerbie.

"It was only in the next few days we began to realise the full horror of it. It took a while to sink in."

He made a decision to move back into his house early in the new year once it was wind and watertight.

"I did that deliberately because I wanted to make a statement that we could live with this disaster and live through it," he said.

"I was happy to move back into my house, though it was a strange feeling being the only one there."

Now, 25 years on, he says we must pay our respects to those who lost their lives and their families.

He will attend the memorial service on Saturday in Lockerbie. Pragmatically he says, if it reopens old wounds, this is something that has to be done.

"We still don't have any justice. I think this is the thing that is causing a lot of suffering, that the people in the plane and on the ground were cheated out of their lives and cheated out of justice," he said.

"I've always believed the Iran Air passenger flight that was blown out of the skies over the Persian Gulf in July 1988, when 290 people died coming back from a pilgrimage to Mecca, was the main cause of Lockerbie."

He continued: "I've always believed Megrahi was innocent. I thought he was a scapegoat. The truth is there, it's just being covered up."

He talks about visiting Megrahi in prison and praying with him for all the families of the deceased.

And remembers a visit from representatives of some of the main Scottish police forces in the days before Megrahi's name was synonymous with the bombing.

"They came to my house in Sherwood Crescent," he said.

"I'd always been speaking about Syria and Iran and saying Libya doesn't really come into the picture.

"They talked about Libya this, Libya that and Libya the next thing. I asked, have you come here to shut me up?

"He said, no, but when you speak people listen, so I would appreciate it when you're speaking to people in the media if you would follow the same lines as us: Libya.

"I wrote to the Lord Advocate and after about a month I got this reply that said they'd only come to keep me informed.

"That visit convinced me that I was on the right tracks concerning Syria and Iran. Why should they ask me to keep quiet?"