tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post2064759603158341561..comments2024-03-15T06:02:30.623+00:00Comments on The Lockerbie Case: Lockerbie documentary to screen tonight on STVRobert Blackhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03606456028430261555noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-60600803358032908552010-08-12T22:43:55.525+01:002010-08-12T22:43:55.525+01:00Agreed, that's an interesting point if Abu Tal...Agreed, that's an interesting point if Abu Talb changed his name to that. I'm open to his involvement, but as the 'mystery shopper' I can't yet accept it. I don't think it was proven he was there on the 23rd. he's also too young and too short to be the 6' plus 50-year old Libyan. His clothes weren't traced to Mary's House that I know of.<br /><br />Some points have been made to the effect of some of these, but mostly by David Leppard et al., during a time investigators wanted Abu Talb. Gauci was induced by presumably slanted photo spread to point at Talb and even say he was similar to the buyer. Again, at a time when investigators were trying for that, as they later would with Megrahi to the same useful effect. <br /><br />Dec 21 on the calendar:<br />It was later reported this was the date his sister was due to deliver a baby, and the Zeist Judges decided the actual delivery happened just past midnight on the 22nd , giving him an approximate alibi for the planting of the bomb at Malta.Presumably he was involved in the process, maybe just driving - it wasn't explained in detail. Compared to Megrahi, they gave the Egyptian the benefit of the doubt, but still I'm inclined to doubt the usual version of his involvement. <br /><br />http://lockerbiedivide.blogspot.com/2010/01/evidence-reconsidered-abu-talb.html<br /><br />But I admit I'm a little hazy on much of this, and he did reside in Sweden and had links to Abu Elias and the PFLP-GC cell, <i>some</i> make of Maltese clothes, etc ... <br /><br />But I agree, the "this much evidence" thing was ridiculous. 38-minute detonation, revenge promises, payments, bombs, a missing bomb, the break-in, the Bedford cases, the lucky bomb placement near the skin, the disappeared Frankfurt records, the "anomalies" surrounding all the crucial physical evidence, the absolutely fevered cover-up mode and evident framing of Libya ... <br /><br />All these could have one reality uniting them as causative factors, or could all be pointless coincidences hanging on the side of this flimsy Libyan guilt construct.Caustic Logichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03082923821952309709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-43971731807043584802010-08-12T12:36:54.770+01:002010-08-12T12:36:54.770+01:00Abu Talb subsequently changing his nom de guerre t...<i>Abu Talb subsequently changing his nom de guerre to Abu Intehkam, which just happens to be the name of the Revenge operation which Iran paid the PFLP-GC to perpetrate;</i><br /><br />Now <i>that's</i> something I didn't know. Do you have a source for that?Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16206952819245786811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-44767447884870270722010-08-12T11:01:09.409+01:002010-08-12T11:01:09.409+01:00In part 3, at around 05' 48", the FBI cha...In part 3, at around 05' 48", the FBI chap wriggles and squirms on the matter of bribes to Gauchi and then says:<br />"Whether he got something: I can't comment on. I'm not allowed to comment".<br /><br />That is a very clear non-denial of the bribe. If Gauci has not been bribed, neither a priori nor a posteriori, then there is no reason for the FBI not to say so.<br /><br />The programme really should have pressed that point.<br /><br />I noted another example of the programme makers failing to follow up a point. An American bereaved father in an interview said "What I'd like to see is that much evidence that it was somebody else". His hand gesture showed a miniscule gap between thumb and forefinger to indicate a miniscule quantity.<br /><br />An honest and knowledgable interviewer would immeidately have riposted with half a dozen items of evidence, such as:<br /><br />Abu Talb having been found in possession of clothes from Mary's House;<br /><br />Abu Talb having been present on Malta on the rainy day of the football match and before the Crimbo lights went on;<br /><br />Abu Talb having circled Dec 21 on his calendar;<br /><br />Abu Talb subsequently changing his nom de guerre to Abu Intehkam, which just happens to be the name of the Revenge operation which Iran paid the PFLP-GC to perpetrate;<br /><br />The Autumn Leaves bombs having a barostatically initiated timer which corresponds quite extraordarily closely to the timing of the explosion just South of Lockerbie;<br />etc; etc; etc.<br /><br />Similarly, when the FBI guy claimed that Libya had a motive for a revenge attack following the bombing of the two cities and the murder of Gadaffi's little girl, the interviewer should immediately have queried why former PM Thatcher has said that the "much vaunted" retaliation by Libya did not happen.<br /><br />It is the sheer crappiness of the 'journalism' in this programme which indicates that it is made for the American market. <br /><br />Americans tend not to be intellectually curious and they tend to believe what they're told to believe. That's a major flaw in their tertiary education system and is the reason for the enormous qualitative difference between a graduate of a UK university and an American college.Percontorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15015270587345756848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-24315477209364906362010-08-12T00:08:43.264+01:002010-08-12T00:08:43.264+01:00Perconter, it was made for the Scottish Market, it...Perconter, it was made for the Scottish Market, it was re-cycled claptrap. STV aren't a rich outfit. I thought it was dire in terms of "quality journalism". Any decent journalist would not have allowed those police people or Marquise away with getting out of stating if Gauci was paid. It was pathetic. Nice to see letters in the Scottish Press today pointing out just how much he got.Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-44274626339848438412010-08-11T22:59:08.153+01:002010-08-11T22:59:08.153+01:00I've just watched the STV documentary on their...I've just watched the STV documentary on their website.<br /><br />It looks to me as if it was made for the American market.<br /><br />It lacks the objectivity and questioning style that a good documentary ought to have.<br /><br />Too many completely false assertions are made and too few questions are asked.<br /><br />It's not what we need. We need a comprehensive examination of all credible information, not just a prosecutorial jumble of unquestioned 'facts' being put together to try to justify an unsustainable conclusion.<br /><br />With an unquestioning media (some notable exceptions to that pattern do exist!) and with a largely supine body politic, we are unlikely to get the wide ranging public Inquiry which we badly need.Percontorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15015270587345756848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-80801847045071218732010-08-11T12:32:18.344+01:002010-08-11T12:32:18.344+01:00The level of respect present here in recent days h...<i>The level of respect present here in recent days has deteriorated and at some points has been absent altogether. There is never any need for that and I'm uncomfortable when it goes that way.</i><br /><br />That's one of the reasons (apart from the much more manageable forum format) that I like the JREF. The moderation prevents any personal attacks on other members and bad behaviour of most kinds. You play nice or you don't play.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16206952819245786811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-23457428661844405342010-08-11T12:30:29.199+01:002010-08-11T12:30:29.199+01:00The court had to arrive at a judgement 'beyond...<i>The court had to arrive at a judgement 'beyond reasonable doubt' not 'on the balance of probabilities'. I am not speculating on whether or not anything was planted or otherwise, I am simply suggesting that there are serious question marks concerning the circuit board fragment and the entire Malta link with Gauci: suggesting that, just to take these two items alone, a verdict based on the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' was insufficiently met.</i><br /><br />On that basis, I entirely take your point. Mind you, the reasonable doubt in that department is a fair way down the scale from the reasonable doubt that the clothes were purchased on 7th December, or that Megrahi was the man who made that purchase, or that tray B8849 at Frankfurt was the "primary suitcase", but it all adds up.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16206952819245786811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-70744847810354354632010-08-11T12:04:08.857+01:002010-08-11T12:04:08.857+01:00Jo: I like this format too, and can work with it. ...Jo: I like this format too, and can work with it. "Beast" style format has its pluses as well, and a discussion forum has its own more similar to this. From a technical PoV, as far as how comments are arranged. Not about the content. <br /><br />As far as some posts' comments staying low, it's largely just what takes off. This show doesn't deserve this many comments, we just keep going all over, sometimes bickering, etc. There is something else too, posts that aren't controversial or juicy. Or for whatever reason, people aren't moved to say much. I've noticed it too. <br /><br />Rolfe: <i>"I simply cannot see any plausible scenario in which these clothes (or at least the seven items mentioned by Tony Gauci in his first interview, which of course don't include the Slalom shirt) were planted at any time after the disaster."</i><br /><br />Sorry, my fault. I had meant to weigh in on that question. I have a pet notion, down some rabbit hole, that all the tangled radio bits and clothes were all faked together, just to point at Malta/Libya as they so conveniently did. The clothes existing is not QUITE as problematic to me as that within the radio box, but again, a relatively high convenience-to-plausibility ratio. <br /><br />I haven't laid it all out, but the general notion makes sense in the context, I think.Caustic Logichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03082923821952309709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-3961542677657510112010-08-11T11:47:37.173+01:002010-08-11T11:47:37.173+01:00Just to clarify, I'm not judging anyone's ...Just to clarify, I'm not judging anyone's way of posting. But here's a thought I've had lately. Go and look at the letters recently posted on the site and then count the comments. Look at posts about the play at the Fringe. Its as if these are lightweight matters and I just don't think they are. There is another wonderful selection of letters today. They are all taking the view that there is something wrong and we need to keep those messages out there, in newspapers, if we are to keep the pressure on.Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-82964045457167600632010-08-11T11:13:21.356+01:002010-08-11T11:13:21.356+01:00And on the monies paid to the Gaucis, if this was...And on the monies paid to the Gaucis, if this was anything remotely like a serious documentary involving serious journalists STV would not have allowed the police and other investigators to smirk their way through questions about how much the Gaucis were paid later. It is a question that needed an answer and the answer wasn't given. So for me it is indeed another glaring inaccuracy along with the misinformation about Air Malta flying that bomb to Frankfurt in an unaccompanied bag.Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-92145226075558962532010-08-11T11:04:26.628+01:002010-08-11T11:04:26.628+01:00Caustic.......I'm seeing the calls about the l...Caustic.......I'm seeing the calls about the lay out of this blog but I disagree with them. I'm happy with the format. <br /><br />As far as I can tell the blog is about events since the trial and developments on a daily basis. I really don't want to see anything like some of the stuff I've seen lately, on other sites, here. It wouldn't work. The level of respect present here in recent days has deteriorated and at some points has been absent altogether. There is never any need for that and I'm uncomfortable when it goes that way. <br /><br />I accept too that some people like to learn more and more of the technical stuff but ultimately that won't help the case out there. It isn't about us. Its about a terrible wrong done and the fight to put it right. My favourite parts of this site are the letters and comments which come supporting the calls for a full investigation. I am always delighted to see another one posted by Prof Black. It always lifts me because I see something else out there that people will be reading in their newspapers. <br /><br />My priority is to do my bit to keep pressure on politicians and the media in order to get an investigation. For that, for me, is the only thing that will change anything otherwise we could sit here for another twenty odd years talking about it.Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-3902202205074741642010-08-11T10:30:19.011+01:002010-08-11T10:30:19.011+01:00Rolfe,
The court had to arrive at a judgement ...Rolfe,<br /><br />The court had to arrive at a judgement 'beyond reasonable doubt' not 'on the balance of probabilities'. I am not speculating on whether or not anything was planted or otherwise, I am simply suggesting that there are serious question marks concerning the circuit board fragment and the entire Malta link with Gauci: suggesting that, just to take these two items alone, a verdict based on the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' was insufficiently met.<br /><br />Robert.Quincey Riddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09196728122070096913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-44064673116167882902010-08-11T10:00:12.217+01:002010-08-11T10:00:12.217+01:00Quincey Riddle, I agree with much of what you say....Quincey Riddle, I agree with much of what you say. We've already been over the implausibility of the alleged plot as well, of course. However, I have to say that although I once had deep suspicions regarding the authenticity of the Maltese clothes, I have discounted these. I simply cannot see any plausible scenario in which these clothes (or at least the seven items mentioned by Tony Gauci in his first interview, which of course don't include the Slalom shirt) were planted at any time after the disaster.<br /><br />Thus, on first principles, the possibility that some fragments of the radio at least survived by being blasted into the cloth can't be discounted. Is it possible that a bit of the IED (the timer fragment) survived in a similar way? I still have an open mind about that, despite Dr. Wyatt's tests. I'd put the timer fragment in the "pretty improbable and suuspiciously convenient" bracket, rather than completely impossible.<br /><br />I'd also comment that if anyone did plant that timer fragment, they were perfectly capable of ensuring it came up positive for explosives residues while they were at it. Or at least that it had been in contact with playing cards....<br /><br />The real boggle moment for me is the front page of the radio manual. A few tiny wads of paper blasted into the cloth along with the radio fragments that carried them there, again I can get my brain round. That piece of paper that Deccy Horton is *alleged* to have picked up in her field? Er, not so much.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16206952819245786811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-55712976309855608862010-08-11T09:40:24.982+01:002010-08-11T09:40:24.982+01:00There's obviously some sort of glitch still ha...There's obviously some sort of glitch still happening in the blog software. I see several comments interpolated among those I read last night, which didn't appear to me then.<br /><br />We've got several topics interleaving in this thread, which illustrates once again the problems of trying to have a forum discussion in a blog comments section.<br /><br />Bunntamas, we've been over the compassionate release several times in other threads, and the main suspicion surfacing has been that Kenny MacAskill was maybe over-keen to get the thing pushed through so that he could expedite the process of leaning on Megrahi to drop the appeal. I don't think he behaved well, but my reason for that is that I suspect he used the three-month prognosis to imply to Megrahi that he wouldn't live to see the appeal concluded anyway, so he might as well drop it to expedite his return to Libya.<br /><br />You may criticise his behavious for other reasons, but there isn't the slightest shred of evidence that he was in any way swayed by commercial considerations when taking the decision.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16206952819245786811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-39588721781764503662010-08-11T07:46:30.659+01:002010-08-11T07:46:30.659+01:00Aren't they?Aren't they?Caustic Logichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03082923821952309709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-84272457217077986992010-08-11T07:46:07.881+01:002010-08-11T07:46:07.881+01:00I think we could use more banter, actually. And tr...I think we could use more banter, actually. And triple-digit comment posts are awesome.Caustic Logichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03082923821952309709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-37498664157294644362010-08-11T07:43:28.419+01:002010-08-11T07:43:28.419+01:00Jo ... only threat I see here is you, threatening ...<i>Jo ... only threat I see here is you, threatening an Air Malta lawsuit. Just sayin. <br /><br />Caustic.......what's the point there? I reminded certain people that Air Malta already threatened to sue those who implied they were involved in assisting unaccompanied luggage on to that plane. They didn't. They produced records to prove it. And the other party settled with them out of court. </i><br /><br />Sorry, came out wrong. You said something about threats, which I'm not sensing as much as you seem to be, tho I do agree the tone at that one site (and in the friggin USA) is an affront to a civilized person who knows Megrahi is most likely innocent. I know lawsuit wasn't a real threat, just a funny way to suggest a chill pill, but that is again in my reading of your text, where context and tones of voice can be imagined, etc. <br /><br />so basically, sorry never mind?Caustic Logichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03082923821952309709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-90595384932086265682010-08-11T07:43:27.746+01:002010-08-11T07:43:27.746+01:00Jo ... only threat I see here is you, threatening ...<i>Jo ... only threat I see here is you, threatening an Air Malta lawsuit. Just sayin. <br /><br />Caustic.......what's the point there? I reminded certain people that Air Malta already threatened to sue those who implied they were involved in assisting unaccompanied luggage on to that plane. They didn't. They produced records to prove it. And the other party settled with them out of court. </i><br /><br />Sorry, came out wrong. You said something about threats, which I'm not sensing as much as you seem to be, tho I do agree the tone at that one site (and in the friggin USA) is an affront to a civilized person who knows Megrahi is most likely innocent. I know lawsuit wasn't a real threat, just a funny way to suggest a chill pill, but that is again in my reading of your text, where context and tones of voice can be imagined, etc. <br /><br />so basically, sorry never mind?Caustic Logichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03082923821952309709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-69550243871210079352010-08-11T00:59:39.472+01:002010-08-11T00:59:39.472+01:00Sorry for the "banter" but I can't h...Sorry for the "banter" but I can't help but notice in my comments above, roughly minutes apart, the date switched from 10 Aug. to 11 Aug. My computer clock / calendar here still says 10 Aug. I do recognize it's the time diff. But can't help to think... I'm posting in the future. Ahh.... if it were all that easy. <br />Good night Scotland.Bunntamashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01059832398419964501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-38312065650474832182010-08-11T00:18:12.920+01:002010-08-11T00:18:12.920+01:00No, post 74 is the last, I double checked.
This l...No, post 74 is the last, I double checked.<br /><br />This link should get the actual post.<br />http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6213127Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16206952819245786811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-13010592717318308782010-08-11T00:15:45.429+01:002010-08-11T00:15:45.429+01:00Rolfe, Post 74? Are you sure? There are, at last c...Rolfe, Post 74? Are you sure? There are, at last count, 523 posts on that string.Bunntamashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01059832398419964501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-29444317297586028772010-08-10T23:59:46.637+01:002010-08-10T23:59:46.637+01:00Nighty night Rolfe. Safe travels.Nighty night Rolfe. Safe travels.Bunntamashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01059832398419964501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-39377440824458157212010-08-10T23:42:54.148+01:002010-08-10T23:42:54.148+01:00Sorry, I forgot. Post 74.Sorry, I forgot. Post 74.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16206952819245786811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-63036396549640757612010-08-10T23:41:51.368+01:002010-08-10T23:41:51.368+01:00Did Abdelbaset al-Megrahi blow up Pan Am 103?
http...Did Abdelbaset al-Megrahi blow up Pan Am 103?<br />http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=169917<br /><br />Bedtime now though. And if I don't do some packing for going on holiday on Saturday, I'm dead meat.Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16206952819245786811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1073021351804532798.post-38960325406371755372010-08-10T23:36:18.074+01:002010-08-10T23:36:18.074+01:00Rolfe, what's the name of the thread you "...Rolfe, what's the name of the thread you "bumped"?Bunntamashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01059832398419964501noreply@blogger.com